Navigating the shifting tides of the lighting industry is no small feat, and as I peer into the rearview mirror of the past year, I'm struck by our collective resilience. Even as we missed the zenith of success from previous years, there's a spark of optimism for what 2024 holds, despite the perplexing economic signals and the shadow of an election year. In a candid sharing of my journey, I unravel the knots of undergoing a major software transition in my showroom, a process that has been both draining and invigorating. And as the possibility of rekindling our podcast in February 2024 hangs in the balance, the vitality of our community's input has never been clearer. Your voices fuel this space, and it's this very interconnection that illuminates the path ahead for our industry.
The conversation then pivots to the undercurrents of challenge that lighting showroom retailers confront daily. The narrative weaves through the undervaluation of our specialized knowledge, shrinking margins, and the fading of sales tools that were once our mainstay. I dissect the evolving dynamics between manufacturers and showrooms, advocating for 'to the trade certified' partnerships to rejuvenate our sector. With each insight and reflection shared, the episode becomes a call to arms for transparency and alliance. We're not just selling lights; we're safeguarding our expertise and fortifying partnerships that respect the depth of our work. Join me as we illuminate the intricacies of our trade and champion the reciprocal relationships essential for the lighting industry's prosperity.
Thank you to Lights America for sponsoring this episode of Lighting with Lisa!
Navigating the shifting tides of the lighting industry is no small feat, and as I peer into the rearview mirror of the past year, I'm struck by our collective resilience. Even as we missed the zenith of success from previous years, there's a spark of optimism for what 2024 holds, despite the perplexing economic signals and the shadow of an election year. In a candid sharing of my journey, I unravel the knots of undergoing a major software transition in my showroom, a process that has been both draining and invigorating. And as the possibility of rekindling our podcast in February 2024 hangs in the balance, the vitality of our community's input has never been clearer. Your voices fuel this space, and it's this very interconnection that illuminates the path ahead for our industry.
The conversation then pivots to the undercurrents of challenge that lighting showroom retailers confront daily. The narrative weaves through the undervaluation of our specialized knowledge, shrinking margins, and the fading of sales tools that were once our mainstay. I dissect the evolving dynamics between manufacturers and showrooms, advocating for 'to the trade certified' partnerships to rejuvenate our sector. With each insight and reflection shared, the episode becomes a call to arms for transparency and alliance. We're not just selling lights; we're safeguarding our expertise and fortifying partnerships that respect the depth of our work. Join me as we illuminate the intricacies of our trade and champion the reciprocal relationships essential for the lighting industry's prosperity.
Thank you to Lights America for sponsoring this episode of Lighting with Lisa!
Hello and welcome fellow lighting nerds and friends to Lighting with Lisa, the lighting industries podcast hosted by me, lisa Bartlett, and sponsored this week once again by Lights America. Thank you so much, lights America, for sponsoring and supporting the podcast in its new form, and I'll have more on Lights America in upcoming minutes of the episode. So you might have noticed, the podcast has been off schedule a bit this December 2023. The last episode, I think, was pretty good insight as to why, in our transition from Windward System 5 to Oracle NetSuite at my lighting showroom, it's been a journey and it has been all consuming, as anyone who has ever gone through a huge conversion like this can attest to. It is really just takes over everything in one's life and I'm happy to do it. It's been a worthwhile endeavor thus far but it sure has been a time and energy drain. But I'm looking forward to a great 2024 with our new systems in place. But because of that the podcast has been off schedule a bit. So this will be the last lighting with Lisa podcast for 2023. The podcast will hopefully return in 2024.
Speaker 1:As I mentioned when I relaunched the podcast after Light Files, I will only be doing the podcast for I'm able to continue to have sponsors and partners on the podcast and, quite honestly, I have not had time to try to make those connections for 2024 episodes. I will endeavor to do so and, assuming all goes well, the podcast will be back starting February 2024. I am going to not be in Dallas for light of Asian in January. My showroom will be in attendance but it will not be by me. I will be off on a different trip that was preplanned. So I will be thinking of you all from afar, but you know I won't be there in January. I will be in June and I'm sure everyone will have a wonderful market and, believe it or not, I will miss every one of you and I'm sorry I won't get to see you in person but but I will not be there. So once I'm back from my trip and we get through January, the podcast will come back.
Speaker 1:The best way to make that happen if you enjoy the podcast is to share it, tell a friend, like, like and subscribe. Please email me, lisa, at lighting with Lisacom, if you are interested in sponsoring the podcast, if you're interested in appearing on the podcast, if you have a good lead on someone that might be interested in sponsoring the podcast. If you have some thoughts on the podcast whether it's feedback on an existing episode, ideas for future content your inspiration and thoughts are what keep the podcast going. Quite honestly, like quite literally, when the light files podcast went dark, I was not planning on bringing it back in, at least not in this form. But I was approached by many of you about how you enjoyed the podcast and it helped make you feel like you weren't alone out there in our little lighting world silos, and I do very much appreciate that feeling, and so I was inspired to keep it going under this new lighting with Lisa brand I have been working on. I was working on it much more assertively before this database transition, but I am fully expecting that to come back around in 2024. So, anyway, I hope I am able to continue the podcast after this episode.
Speaker 1:So this episode is going to be a little bit of thoughts on the past year and what I really hope for the lighting industry in 2024 and beyond. I do endeavor to keep these podcasts positive and informative and focused on success. I am a bit hesitant that some of the content of this podcast might come off a bit negative. That is certainly not my intention, but it is always my intention to draw a light, to shine a light on things that I think are not working quite right in our industry, things we can all improve on From all corners. Again, that can be showroom focused, it could be manufacturer focused, it could be sales agent focused, but there are definitely things that need some improvement. And, as we head into light evasion, I think it's the perfect time this holiday week to sit back and reflect on these things and really think about where our industry is going and how we all fit into it in the next year and beyond. So that's what's coming up, this episode. So let's get into it.
Speaker 1:So 2023 has been, I think, for all of us, a good I'm going to call it a solid year. It wasn't a 2021 or 2022. Those were amazing years. I think 2023, for me at least, and in those I've talked to has basically landed in the solid category. If you were projecting growth based on what happened in 2021 and 2022, I think you were probably a bit disappointed. But I haven't talked to anybody who said 23 has just been a disaster for them. Things have just been a bit slower, a bit softer, but by no means bad or terrible, and from the signs we are seeing in the economy at large.
Speaker 1:I'm expecting 24 to continue in that same vein. Maybe things will soften up even a bit more because it's an election year. But we do have potentially some at least stable news out of the Fed with interest rates, maybe even a reduction in interest rates. Home prices in my area of the world are still pretty astronomically high. Inventory is still low even with high interest rates. Things are certainly not selling as fast as they were, but it's not like things are at a complete standstill. So I think there is definitely mixed signs out there. I am not sure.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure I am being more conservative in my 2024 planning For my show. I'm especially. I did take on this additional large expense of a new software platform that does not come cheap. I'm delighted we did it, but it is a big resources hog, so I'm behaving conservatively because of that and many other factors in the economy at large. So we'll see how that all plays out. But I definitely think 24 has the markings of a solid to middling year, especially to start. Hopefully that turns around and grows a bit mid, middle end of the year.
Speaker 1:But again, depending how this election goes and how, what kind of dramatics arise in our national politics. You just never know how that could end up playing out. So, as always, you know something to keep an eye on. But I'm not expecting any disasters for 2024. I don't think. I don't think any of us are. That would be a surprise, but surprises do happen. So I'm just not expecting like 21 and 22 were just booms. We all know those are happen sometimes and we're lucky to have them and we can enjoy them, but it's unsustainable, really. So I think we're just headed back to maybe more of a soft position, but not a weak one, for the next year or so. So that's my two cents on that. So, moving into 2024.
Speaker 1:I'm going to call 2024 the critical year of partnership and the lack thereof. I think 2024 for the lighting industry is a year where the rubber really needs to meet the road and we really need to decide who are our partners in our businesses Every one of us. Manufacturers, who are your partners, sales agents who are your partners. Lighting showrooms take a hard look who are your partners, and we all need to have some honest and frank conversations with ourselves and one another about this. For showrooms, we can often feel like we're being kept in the dark by our manufacturer partners. It often feels like you're being told what the whoever sales agent, manufacturer, whoever it is what they want you to hear and you know. Pay no mind to the man behind the curtain. I'm not saying that is the reality. It is often the perception. So for many, many lighting showrooms, there is this sense of lack of genuine partnership.
Speaker 1:I'm a business owner. I understand that having all of your eggs in one proverbial basket is not really sustainable as a business. I wouldn't expect any of my partners to manage their businesses accordingly. What I do hope for is that there is a value put on the partnership with my business, that it is prioritized as a customer and that it is not marginalized by other business decisions made by my partners. Um, I want to feel like, excited about the people I'm doing business with. I don't want to feel like I'm being bullied. I don't want to feel like I'm being lied to. I don't want to feel like I'm made to feel less than for the business I have cultivated and worked so hard at. I want to be excited. I want to run into showrooms in Dallas with like joy to see the products, to engage with everyone there, to network, to learn, to grow. I don't want it to be a chore that I have to do, that I feel obligated to do.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of us are starting to feel a bit disillusioned in the showroom side with our partnerships or lack thereof. I'm not saying this is a one-way street. This very well could be the case on the other side too. That's why I'm saying I believe we really need to have some serious conversations about what these things look like going forward, and I think we need to be honest with one another. Showroom life the past several years and while it has been good economically for many of us, we have margins continuing to be squeezed, increasingly saturated market of goods and a reduction in great relationships. That's not a winning recipe. It's not a winning recipe for any of us.
Speaker 1:It often feels like our partners Again, not all. I am speaking in very general statements. I am aware I'm not singling anybody out in any way, but it feels often that our partners in our businesses they're making it harder to do business together. That's just not a sustainable place to live from. It almost seems to be like how much can we take away and still keep this distribution channel? How much can we impede on their ability to do business and still keep them around as customers and engaged. That's a fairly dramatic statement, but sometimes it does feel that way as the customer in the vendor sorry, the manufacturer, sales agent showroom, like three-legged stool, it just feels like as the customer we are less and less important and all of us customers in that relationship are the retailer in another relationship and we are just trained day in and day out. Not that the customer is always right, we know that's kind of like a fraudulent belief to some degree, but we do all prioritize customer service and it frequently, frequently, frequently feels like as the customer I'm not getting outstanding service and I'm being made to think that things are one way when they're another or whatever the case may be.
Speaker 1:It just feels like a lack of partnership, like how, what can I do to keep this business around and still have them sell my stuff? Like what's the bare minimum we can get by with? You know, of course, there used to be higher margins in the industry, right, that's long gone. The internet happened, so I understand, with like a reduction in margins all around. Things like free sales tools have also like gone away and like aggressive, like programs, but like when things like free sales tools including, like color samples or finished samples or gosh what do you name it Glass, whatever it is that would help you as a business sell more of a product. A lot of those tools have like slowly disappeared, and I understand, because, like margins are shrunk and everything else, so that's fine. I mean, I understand that that's a thing, but it doesn't help me sell more of the product. And then you couple that with some of the like reward programs that I see out there in the market and I mean I like a nice trip as much as the next person. You all know that but they don't actually help the bottom line of my business and I would rather have funds that are spent on a trip or some sort of item like that reinvested back into my sales channels that I can sell more.
Speaker 1:It just often seems like the phrase that comes to mind is like lipstick on a pig and that's maybe a bit more aggressive than I mean, but it just is not very encouraging for showrooms to really do everything that we need to do in order to sell product. It honestly feels like there's like a devaluation of the skill needed to work in a lighting showroom and to be able to answer all of the questions concerns comments, weird, whatever that customers have about like their lighting and their dimmers and their light bulbs, and it just kind of feels like the industry at large is treating our jobs in the lighting showroom as if it is not a skilled job, and every one of us that works in a lighting showroom for a living can tell you it's highly skilled and highly technical job, which is why it is highly difficult to find people that are willing to learn everything that needs to be learned to effectively sell in a lighting showroom. It is not a job that a lot of people can step into and excel at. It takes a lot of learning and willingness to learn about things most of us have never thought of before in our entire lives. So it often feels that that that knowledge, that tribal knowledge that we've built up and learned and acquired all of these years in the industry learning from dimmers and compatibility and light bulbs and LEDs and integral LEDs and LED lamps and fans and CFMs and DC motors and AC motors and all of the little little questions we deal with all day long to sell effectively and have happy customers it feels like there is a devaluation of that skill in the industry at large, a lack of prioritizing the importance of those skills. It's like it doesn't. It's like if you haven't worked in a lighting showroom you don't quite understand how challenging it can really be to be able to answer these questions. You know, some things are easy, right, and those are the sales we all love. But some things are hard. Doing a tape light layout and having it be installed without issue is challenging. This is not for the faint of heart to do it successfully.
Speaker 1:Let me just rephrase a little bit what I've been saying in order. I guess anybody can like throw a dart and guess at some of these things with dimmers and spec sheets and trying to look up compatibilities and all that fun stuff. But to successfully build a business on these technical applications is actually very hard. You could do it and give away all your margin in mistakes. But the name of the game here is to be able to quote these jobs, to install them, to see them through from start to finish and make a profit at it. And to make a profit at it you have to have a high level of skill. If you're just kind of like half assing and guessing, there goes all your margin in mistakes, because mistakes in this industry and this business can be exceptionally costly, depending on what you're working on and what you're doing, how tall the ceilings are or whatever random thing you happen to run into.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to take a little commercial break here. I want to thank our sponsor, lights America. If you're going to Lightavation, unlike myself, be sure to visit the Lights America team Felix, eugene and Julie be sure to visit with them inside the Framberg showroom. You can give a test drive to the floor kiosk, which is just fantastic If you haven't seen that, and they can fill you in on all of their latest products and innovations, including their partnership on the 3D model and augmented reality program, which is expanding. For all Lights America customers, whether you have a showroom website, a sales rep website, it is a fantastic tool the 3D models in the showrooms alone. I chatted with the the technology team earlier this week and they said that the activations of the 3D models for some manufacturers were just off the charts and we all know that tools like that can really lead to increased sales and interest in your products and your business. So Lights America proudly supports this podcast the lighting industry.
Speaker 1:It is the leading data provider for fans, lighting and home decor. The database comes directly from the manufacturers. They scrub the data. They put it back out there for all of us to use. You can use it on the via the Lights America website. You can use the data on a website platform of your own choosing via the data 52 program. There's I'm at holiday tracking pro tools, the 3D program. It is the most dependable and comprehensive catalog service in the lighting and fan industry and I think it's definitely worth a look. If you haven't looked recently at everything Lights America offers, so be sure to visit them at the Framberg showroom at light ofation or reach out to them via lightsamericacom. Don't forget to tell them that lighting with Lisa sent you. If you're a current Lights America customer, you can still take advantage of a free website banner or email blast, and if you're new to Lights America, you can take advantage of a 15% discount on setup fees of premium or data 52 services. That is a great bargain, so please be sure to reach out to them. Let them know you came via the lighting with Lisa podcast and it really, really is something to check out if you haven't looked at it in a long time, and light ofation is the perfect time and place to do so.
Speaker 1:Okay, so back on my 2024 commiserating. Okay, well, we're going to try to make this a bit more positive. I just I just think it's important that we speak in these hard truths about where we are. It definitely feels sometimes that we're like at this critical, like half full, half empty balance in the industry. I'm just not quite sure which way things are going to tip. I think there I don't just think I know there is a lot of room for improvement. There is a lot of room for improving programs in a way that meets the needs of all participants.
Speaker 1:So let's, let's take a hot topic on selling directly to the trade. So, for the aforementioned reasons about feeling marginalized as showroom distribution, it feels like a bit of a slap in the face that trade programs exist in some degree, that folks are not sent back to lighting showrooms for these purchases. I know when, every time I mention that, I'm often told it's not your showroom that's the problem, it's all these other ones, and I just think I don't know, maybe that's a thing, but say that is a thing that not all showrooms are responsive or they're not pricing at the level the market requires for these kinds of jobs. Okay, fine, I will accept that. So how about we? Do some manufacturers come up with a trade certified showroom model and this could be different for every manufacturer. You know, maybe some manufacturers, maybe it's important that the showrooms show responsiveness.
Speaker 1:And, by the way, a little anecdote, I'm going to interrupt myself I have always followed up on every lead that every sales agent has ever passed my way for selling to the trade. I follow rapidly, I give I'm not, I'm going to say very qualified pricing. I do not delay. You put dollar signs in front of me, I'm going to follow them. I'm not just going to like, not respond for days. I'm very responsive, especially in what comes to the health and future of my business.
Speaker 1:I can't tell you how many times it's just crickets from the other end because all the designer or whomever really wanted to do was by direct, and then when they find out they can't by direct, they're being directed through a showroom. They seem to go another route. So I am understanding that frustration from the manufacturer side when you think about, like what happened there, like I didn't want to lose that sale that went to another manufacturer that sells direct because I'm requiring that people go through a showroom. So like I do acknowledge and appreciate that point. That said, I do think there is a place where these things can overlap right, like it doesn't just have to be the to the trade sales, whatever group, and then the to the showroom distribution and then the online. I don't see why these things can't be much more like Venn diagram overlapping rather than like distinct things.
Speaker 1:So I why not have like a to the trade certified lighting showroom distributor in every market area, or a key market area, or roll it out in a few places and and lay out for that lighting showroom what your to the trade partnership entails, whether that is a guarantee of number of fixtures on displays, a guarantee of X percent discount off retail pricing, a guarantee that you'll hold product, that you'll deliver it at no charge, a guarantee of having up to date website, whatever it is, whatever the key points are for your business, for a trade program, require that to ask that of your showroom partners and some will be willing to do it and be happy to sign up for your. Your trade certified, you know, think of it as a blue check mark. You know, verified by your company, that this showroom understands what to the trade means They'll give you a good, a good value. They will provide the service, they will be your partners in your business. We, like fixture manufacturer, certify this showroom and it doesn't have to be a one and done thing. I would strongly suggest that it be reevaluated on an annual basis. I would also strongly suggest that that the sales be tracked, that responsiveness be tracked and potentially you even do some sort of rebate, either to the dealer or to the customer, either to the designer, to the showroom. Like think of it, be creative about it, however you want to be, but whatever those benefits are that trade partners are looking for by buying direct, there are creative ways that we can offer those things and still use the showroom distribution channel.
Speaker 1:It has been my repeated mantra in 2023. If there's one thing I'm tired of hearing my own self say in 2023 is that by segmenting our sales, we are not increasing the size of the pie, we are just making the pieces smaller, and I, for one, do not want to be on a diet. I do not want the small sliver of pie. I want the biggest slice of pie I can manage. I don't want small. So bye Saturating the market and like creating all these little segments were just doing everybody such a disservice. So I think we need to be more proactive and be more partner minded, truly partner minded.
Speaker 1:Remember when, as a showroom, you couldn't open with a manufacturer because there was another showroom in your market area that was already a key partner with that manufacturer. Remember that. Remember how frustrating that was, especially if you were the second guy. But remember when you were that guy or girl sorry, that was the primary partner with that manufacturer. Remember the value that relationship brought each of you. This is what I'm saying. We don't need to go back necessarily to strict market territories, blah, blah, blah but maybe we need a version of it, right? Maybe we need to be certified in as showrooms that are qualified partners for these manufacturers and me.
Speaker 1:As a showroom, I can take the time to think about who are my key partners. If I was going to pick who I'm going to get that blue verified status from, do I want the blue verified status from Instagram or X AKA Twitter, which is more important to me? Something like that Make I'm happy to work for the position of being a valued partner in somebody's business. I see the benefit to myself, I see the benefit to my partner, I see the benefit to all of us, so I'm happy for that. I don't mind having to, you know, do extra training or understand that these are the requirements, or submitting some quarterly reporting on here the leads we got, here's what happened, here's the sales we made. I don't mind. But if I'm going to commit to that level of information and Intel and partnership, I want it reciprocated. I just don't want to give away all my, my, my businesses, information and plans and projections for you to just take that information with me and go off over here and sell direct some other way that I haven't yet imagined could happen. So I just think partnership is the real key for 2024.
Speaker 1:I feel like this episode definitely is like we're just out here all alone, nobody likes me, Everybody hates me, and that's not really how I feel. As I sit here and record this, I can think of manufacturers that I believe are reasonably good partners for lighting showrooms. Do I believe that they are starting to become tempted by the ways of those that are not amazing partners? I do. I do feel like they're being tempted and I feel like it's on all of us to really evaluate these relationships and partnerships we have and really think about the ones that are working for us and the ones that are just kind of using us, because there are some that are just like I'm going to do the least and if you keep selling my products, great, if you don't not real worried about it. We need to move away from those people. As an industry, we need to move away from that kind of I'm just going to call it a toxic partnership. I've been hanging out with a teenager all week excessively during the holidays. I feel like I'm full of whatever generation this is lingo at the moment, but In all seriousness, I always want to view our partnerships in our future in a positive light, because I do believe there is a lot of opportunity.
Speaker 1:This thinking about a verified status for showroom selling to the trade. I'm not the originator of that idea. It's been around other places. There are other very, very smart people in this industry that have a lot of amazing ideas like this, but we just don't talk about them enough, and that's where I think we get ourselves into trouble. There is so much great energy.
Speaker 1:This is such a tight knit community and I think it does become sort of frustrating when we feel like we're only being told the things that you know that somebody wants to share with us and they're leaving out all the other stuff. It makes it really hard to plan your business. It makes it really hard to plan the future. It makes it hard to understand where things are going. How do I strategically place my business so that I'm doing all the right things? It's a saying around my household bad information in, bad information out, and it just often feels like I have an incomplete picture, which is why I keep coming back to this partnership idea.
Speaker 1:It's not new, obviously I'm not. You know I'm not making business history over here, but I think it's where things have continued to struggle in our industry and I think, unless we're able to work on strengthening these partnerships, fixing these programs, having sales agents buy into these partnerships and really supporting them, until we're able to do all of these things, I think we're going to continue to flounder as an industry. I think we're going to be okay, things will be fine, but I expect the impacts of these less than solid partnerships to be a continued devolving of what we all are to one another, to the point where one day, nobody cares and nobody is going to Dallas twice a year for light ofation. Because why? Because the partnership isn't there, so there's no need. Why am I going to spend that money and time away from my business for a partnership that doesn't value me? Why would I do that? Just things to think about for 2024.
Speaker 1:I will try to wrap this up on a positive note. I do believe firmly that we can all be great partners to one another. I do love what we do so much. I invested heavily in my own business, in a new system that will allow me to provide better service to my customer. A big part of the reason I'm doing that is because I feel like it's often needed in our industry that we provide better, more timely customer feedback, letting them know order statuses. There's so much lighting. Showrooms can be doing better and faster and engaging more with our own clientele, so I'm betting on that. I'm betting on that for my showroom. I'm betting on becoming a better partner to all of my customers in my showroom in 2024 and beyond.
Speaker 1:Now I'm looking for other people to equally step up and bet on my business and those like me, those that are committed to what we are doing, that are committed to having great displays, that are committed to having excellent programs, that are committed to having exceptional customer service, that are doing all of the things they possibly can to have a great lighting and fan business. I want the people that I'm spending my dollars with to double down on those relationships that are key to them, to acknowledge them, to prioritize them in the same way that I prioritize my customers. That's what I'm hoping for in 2024. And I know we can do it. This industry is great. We all know it. I'm such a fan. That's why I have spent all of these years and all of this time on my own. Not on my own. I've always had an amazing team around me, but I just mean like outside of my showroom business. That's why I do all of this extra content and all these additional programs and the LSA and everything else that has been a part of my world. I do all of that out of passion and joy and appreciation of every single one of you listening to this podcast. I know how much you all love what you do.
Speaker 1:I do think we are at a bit of a tipping point as an industry and I think we all just need to sit with that and think about it and take action. If that's one thing I can leave this podcast with is. It is time to take action on these things. The longer we just sit back and let things go the course they're on, the more quickly this is going to devolve. And if we don't take any action seriously, in five years nobody's going to Dallas. Why would you? So let's take action. Let's work on some of these things, let's forge partnerships, let's find mutual success. Let's find ways we can grow together. Instead of smaller and smaller pieces of pie, I want my piece of pie to get bigger next year. That's what I want.
Speaker 1:All right, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. I can't wait to talk to you again in 2024. Be sure to reach out to me via email, lisa, at lightingwithlisacom. You can find me on all the social medias, more or less, but you can find me there. Thank you so much to Lights America and all of the sponsors for the Lighting with Lisa podcast. That includes Zastro and Fanimation. I appreciate you all. Be sure to visit everybody at Market, even though I won't be there. Send me your thoughts, send me your feedback. I can't wait to hear about all the amazing partnership programs that I know we're all going to hear about in January. Thank you so much, everyone. Take care, I'll talk to you next time.